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| Should we re-elect Gaz as President? |
| Yes |
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46% |
[ 6 ] |
| No |
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53% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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| Johnny P
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 11 Oct 2006 | | Posts: 101 | | : | |
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 Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think that THIS is what I dislike about your posts (because you've probably also picked up that I'm not a huge fan either) is your self-righteousness. |
It has nothing to do with whether your or my views are right or wrongin this case, i was simply pointing out that it is inconsistent to say you dont want a market education and then go on to say that we need to accept it and work with it...unless you are defeatist about everything. I dont think we cant conquer the ills of the world by embracing them, we have to challenge them.
| Quote: | My ability to rewrite an Act of Parliament is quite low, but I can work with the University and I do engage in that area - I'd be failing if I was stubbornly purist but not realistically campaigning.
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I just get continually annoyed by the statement that any view alternative to mine must be a good one, by sheer virtue that its an alternative and I obey the Downing Street Student Union Office orders, sent to me by bluetooth to the chip in my brain. |
No one has asked you to do that or believes that you could! This way in which you assume we are all naive about politics is quite patronising as well...when i accuse you of being a labour stooge its not that im accusing you of taking orders from head office, but your cycnical approach to politics and the purposes and priorities for you personally which practically translates as a complete lack of principles. I have realised i overlooked the fact that you believe the only way to bring about change is to use parliamentary democracy exclusively...sorry, that was an assumption which i really should have made. But dont turn around and claim you are being pragmatic about it and we arent. Many people on here have advocated much more pragmatic approaches to dealing with this - a practical approach to fighting this problem would be to develop a strategy to actively confront the government on this issue and force them to back down.
| Quote: | | I always say that you have NO IDEA about my ethical or environmental policies or history - you appear to have made one up. So how has your opinion arisen> This is like playground politics |
No i dont. I havent tried to guess at one either. I dont think ive mentioned the words ethical and environmental or policy in this thread at any point. I would say that in one sense i dont have any idea about what you believe, in the way that i genuinely dont think you actually believe in anything.
| Quote: | | If there has been commendation without the NOLSie proviso, then please draw my attention to it. |
Given that there are numerous people on here who have defended you and commended you for some of your efforts ill leave others to decide what they think of this remark.
| Quote: | | I just get continually annoyed by the statement that any view alternative to mine must be a good one |
I dont think i have ever heard that sentiment expressed here...i think the way you take criticism or engagement is a bit messed up really.
| Quote: | | I am puzzled however by the Bush like attitude that I must either be with you or against you |
Am i meant to find that insulting - being compared to Bush? Well i quite proudly harbour a 'Bush like' view about racists and zionists (well...same thing really). I dont really see why you are puzzled...you know that some people on here are against cycnical secretive manipulative politics rather than accountable transparent democratic representation. Its certainly grounds for me to be against you.
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"...a society that believes in nothing is particularly frightened by people who believe in anything." Bill Durodle, Director International Centre for Security Analysis, Kings College London
Last edited by Johnny P on Fri Jan 05, 2007 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| scruffy wrote: | | JulienP wrote: | | In answer to your continued at annoyance at being compared to Downing Street, it is orders or direct policy or wars. It's attitude, methods/tactics and broad policy where i see similarities. Subway and Spar being a prime examples, very similar in my mind to the government's PFI/PPP projects, in ideal if not in small print legal shite. |
I really can't see the sense in that Julien. I've never heard of a 25 year old mortgage being taken on a sandwich. |
No, you've just done it for five years. Having said this seeing as the decision was taken in July, I suppose the decision wasn't yours, so I'll let you off. As I said in an early post I wasn't saying the were legally the same, but it was the same ideal, that is selling off parts of our Guild to multinationals. Now you think it's someone else's job, fine, but did it have to be subway?
I actually do think it's good for us to run our own shops and bars. It means we have control over what we sell, we can be ethical (although NUSSL limits that), and also be directly responsive to our students needs and desires. It also feels much more like students run the place, and I believe that that would make more students stick around. This is why I think the co-op idea is so brilliant, cos it is not the Guild doing it, which you seem to vehemently oppose, but it is not a money-grabbing multi-national either. I do feel representation and student development are very important as well, before you accuse me of priotising sandwiches over students.
| Quote: | | If you think the most pressing failure of the Guild is that it works in the world we're in, I'm happy to put my hand up. I want to change that world but not pretend that it is better to fight the impossible than deal with what is in front of you. |
I believe that the guild should care about society and the world and more than just students in it's own backyard. This is because it is right, but also because students care about more than just the backyard as well, and therefore we should reflect that. |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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That was me by the way, for some reason the computer logged me out.
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Peter and I DO engage with these forums in a disproportionate way that is, at least honest. I don't believe I've ever run away from addressing criticism of myself, I just get fed up when these forums contain nothing else. If there has been commendation without the NOLSie proviso, then please draw my attention to it. |
I commend you for it, and appreciate that you do that. I also do like the fact you campaign against top-up fees and the like, going against your party there. There you go there's a compliment for you. But I am a hard man to please unfortunatly. You shouldn't go into politics to be liked, god help me if I ever do. I have tried to give you a chance, believe it or not, and although I get the feeling you hate it when I say this, I do feel you're an improvement on your predecessor. Stop taking this so personally, (apologies if you're not) I try to keep my criticism of you, to your politics and your methods, not your person. I have attacked the bucf pictures for being really unconstructive and just mud-slinging for this reason. And if everyone was just nice to each other on this forum, it would be downrught boring!
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| steven
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 30 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 406 | | : | | Location: Selly Park |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| scruffy wrote: | | I don't think students' unions should be a development centre, representation hub and a delicatesan. |
Although I understand that the withering sarcasm included in the word 'delicatesan' has come about because debate has become heated and tempers have become frayed (and for once, it's nothing to do with me!), I'd just like to make my position on the now-infamous 'sandwich issue' clear (since I started it).
I don't see the Guild as a delicatesan either. I see it as two things: 1.) a collection of students who have organised to fight for representation, welfare, etc., and 2.) a building. I think that to get students involved in 1.), we shouldn't forget about 2.), hence why I believe that putting some serious thought into the service providers we allow in the Guild is important. NOTE - not 'the most important thing', but 'important'. The more people want to use the Guild, the more they will feel part of the Guild, and the more likely they will be to take part in its governance and in the campaigns we run.
I also think: a.) as a student's union we're in a position were we shouldn't necessarily just take the highest offer from service providers and leave them to it (as I've explained in the other thread), b.) that having some good, decently-priced food somewhere on campus might be seen by some as a welfare issue (again, see other thread), and c.) some decent food on campus would be nice. |
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| higuy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 02 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 301 | | : | |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Johnny P wrote: |
Now now no need to be sarcastic, my attack was on NOLS stooges like you, not on many other members of the exec who you named. |
I think I will joined the 'outraged' bandwagon on this one because this is something that always pisses me off. Who is a NOLS stooge? You name Gary but you accept he is against fees. How else as a NOLSie is he subservient exactly?
This is something I have already said a couple of times on the messageboard. We are all guilty of misjudging each other, especially when we have never met. But to write off a whole society in such a derogatory manner is simply unfair. I am a member of the Labour Party and hence a member of NOLS. Does that mean I agree with the party on all the issue? No. Does it mean I agree with NOLS on all the issues? No. Before you go judging whether people are apartchiks of the party I would suggest that you talk to them first. |
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| Johnny P
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 11 Oct 2006 | | Posts: 101 | | : | |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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I really dont want to start getting at other people. I quite happily agree that not everyone who is a member of NOLS takes part in their cynical manipulative politiking, i know a lot of people in it who would like to take the group back to principled honest politics and away from what currently constitutes a betrayal of the principles which the labour movement originally stood for. I guess what i am really referring to is the NUS faction, as i understand birmingham labour is simply associated with NOLS anyway, not NOLS itself. But that is beside the point...we were talking about ...
| Quote: | | You name Gary but you accept he is against fees. How else as a NOLSie is he subservient exactly? |
Well im not sure if he is against fees or increases in them, he seems to be accepting them and seeking to engage with the dawning education market...again though, there isnt a list of issues that you sign up to or an office which gives orders, it is the cynical manipulative politics which is practised at the top of our guild and the NUS and which has led to some pretty disgusting behaviour in the past from people who claim to be principled socialists. Sorry about the confusion. I will quite happily write off the labour party though...but thats a different discussion.
_________________
"...a society that believes in nothing is particularly frightened by people who believe in anything." Bill Durodle, Director International Centre for Security Analysis, Kings College London |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Johnny sometimes you seem to talk a lot of sense but when it comes to making sweeping statements about Labour in the Guild and in general you are undermining a lot of the good things you have posted. I must confess I am disappointed and am going to cry a little |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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Like you haven't done the same Josh.
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Big Brother is watching YOU! |
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| Johnny P
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 11 Oct 2006 | | Posts: 101 | | : | |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry, im just pissed off at the way groups like NOLS have crippled the NUS and turned them from a potentially effective campaigning force into a service provider... REALLY pissed off. This very easily translates into messy incoherent attacks on our very own slick and cycnical politk, who are the breed of union officers who go on to keep unions and the nus as they are.
_________________
"...a society that believes in nothing is particularly frightened by people who believe in anything." Bill Durodle, Director International Centre for Security Analysis, Kings College London |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| JulienP wrote: | | Like you haven't done the same Josh. |
Yeah but that's different, I have actually been in Labour (still am in Germany I believe) and the massive conspiracy everyone talks about simply isn't there. Or maybe it's missing me out - which is really fucking stupid cos as anyone who went to GC last year knows, there's nothing more I like than factionalising
with the greatest faction in the Guild and the only one to have members on every committee and GC and an Indy Chair. Rock on |
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| Oktober
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 20 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 290 | | : | | Location: Maple Skank |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| SimonM wrote: | | Never mind Gaz - I can't remember why we decided it was a good idea to allow two terms. Any ideas? |
I think it went like this:
Exec said: Vote for allowing 2 terms
GCers said: BAAAAA! BAAAA! |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Teapotboy wrote: | | JulienP wrote: | | Like you haven't done the same Josh. |
Yeah but that's different, I have actually been in Labour (still am in Germany I believe) and the massive conspiracy everyone talks about simply isn't there. Or maybe it's missing me out - which is really fucking stupid cos as anyone who went to GC last year knows, there's nothing more I like than factionalising
with the greatest faction in the Guild and the only one to have members on every committee and GC and an Indy Chair. Rock on |
Yeah but Josh the thing is, no-one ever knows when you're talking b*llo*k, fictionalising or being serious and telling the truth. So is it any wonder these rumours get started?
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Big Brother is watching YOU! |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| When I typed the word "factionalising" it was actually meaning that I like to align with factions - not that word "fictionalise" at all which you have interpreted it as. I have never told a lie or "fictionalised" in GC - once I did claim maiden speaking rights but when asked if I had spoken before I did come clean and say yes. I'm actually a crap liar. |
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| scruffy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 29 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 120 | | : | | Location: birmingham |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Johnny P wrote: | | Sorry, im just pissed off at the way groups like NOLS have crippled the NUS and turned them from a potentially effective campaigning force into a service provider... REALLY pissed off. This very easily translates into messy incoherent attacks on our very own slick and cycnical politk, who are the breed of union officers who go on to keep unions and the nus as they are. |
Interesting fact...there hasn't been more than 4 labour students on the NUS exec for more than 3 years, and before that no more than 7. On an National Executive of 27. What powerful people we are to be sure, to be controlling so many with so few...
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"the hardest thing to do in politics is nothing"
President of the Guild of Students |
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| Johnny P
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 11 Oct 2006 | | Posts: 101 | | : | |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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You know as well as i do that its as much about controlling the floor as having positions on the executive.
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"...a society that believes in nothing is particularly frightened by people who believe in anything." Bill Durodle, Director International Centre for Security Analysis, Kings College London |
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