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| Rob
Street Demonstrator
| | Joined: 12 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 53 | | : | | Location: Manchester/Hubert Road/God's Right Hand |
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 Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Top of the evenin,
Had this discussion in sixth form. The argument boil down to a few things-
whether you think we have the right to take somethin that is god given (if you're a christian, muslim etc)
Whether you're the victim
whether or not it will have actual social ramifications (ie stop the crime occurring again from other people)
The way I see it there is no way that it can be justified. The person killing/murdering/culling/hanging whatever you want to call the would be criminal would themselves be tainted by the decision. Unless you can put yourself in the shoes of the victim or their families i don't think that you should really have much of a view on it.
Rob
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| gabs
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 02 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 318 | | : | | Location: Faringdon/ Birmingham |
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| Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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You can play semantics all you want. I stand by capital punishment being state sanctioned murder. The state sanctioned bit implies its legality. If you're worried about legal murder being a contradiction then I'll try and come up with a more emotive word for murder.
Obviously there is the possibility of people escaping from prison. Less obvious is your follow on argument which is because of this we should kill the prisoners. I notice you haven't tried to justify your support of the death penalty by restricting it to only the most serious of cases. Your prison security argument would surely apply to the majority of prisoners. Lets kill them all. They won't be dying in vain obviously, the sight of their brains spattered across the whitewash walls will provide you and others with plenty of amusement.
I have no issue with the state putting people to trial through an established process and agree that it is better than revenge killings. It is when the two get muddled up and this established process is just an official form of revenge killings that I have a problem.
On the evilness thing I'm with johnchas (above). Defining people as evil is a lazy way of ignoring the reasons behind certain acts and comfortably avoids the potential in us all to commit these acts as well. Thats a different issue though.
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| Sazzle
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 12 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 219 | | : | | Location: The depths of selly oak |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| gabs wrote: | You can play semantics all you want. I stand by capital punishment being state sanctioned murder. The state sanctioned bit implies its legality. If you're worried about legal murder being a contradiction then I'll try and come up with a more emotive word for murder.
Obviously there is the possibility of people escaping from prison. Less obvious is your follow on argument which is because of this we should kill the prisoners. I notice you haven't tried to justify your support of the death penalty by restricting it to only the most serious of cases. Your prison security argument would surely apply to the majority of prisoners. Lets kill them all. They won't be dying in vain obviously, the sight of their brains spattered across the whitewash walls will provide you and others with plenty of amusement.
I have no issue with the state putting people to trial through an established process and agree that it is better than revenge killings. It is when the two get muddled up and this established process is just an official form of revenge killings that I have a problem.
On the evilness thing I'm with johnchas (above). Defining people as evil is a lazy way of ignoring the reasons behind certain acts and comfortably avoids the potential in us all to commit these acts as well. Thats a different issue though. |
K, I shall try again a different way.....
What is murder? How can we define it within our society.....
If you want to go in depth you WILL find that the laws of our country are unable to punish terroists under the heading of murder since there is lack of intention to kill any one person instead just a general disregard for someones safety. In fact new laws are being bought in as we speak to get rid of this loophole!!!!
Why stop there? What about euthanasia? This is the state deciding that someones will and opinion shouldn't be taken into account in deciding the very end of our own lives.... yet this is prosecuted throughout the year in regard to the spouses that take their partners lives to relieve them their pain i.e. Diane Pretty.....
The death penalty ended in the 1960's in the UK as a result of public backlash and opinion after a series of cases where justice could not be deemed to have occured. Some of the most controversial cases arose that have shown that the last hangings that occurred were wrong. This is just the start of showing that they were in deed right to take such penalties away from our government. The argument that miscarriages do not happen is wrong because they obviously do..... there is a lot of cases where we punish the vast majority and the innocent that get caught in the system just are a fatality regarding justice. As regards the US they still have it in several states, as they see it as a right that they choose for its "worst" criminals. This has been chosen by its people and democracy determines the extent of its use.
At the end of the day the definition of murder is different accoding to everything that arises and there are under no situations a legally justified situation where such is or should be allowed. More emphasis should be taken away from retibution and placed upon the need to change society, instead of punishing its individuals.
Lastly as regards evil in society I feel that this is rather a narrow view to take ont he subject, however, I feel there is the potential for good and evil in everyone, however that is just it... some people follow the "good" path while otehrs do not. This allows for the decisions and the difference that occurs in different people and also leads to the evil that occurs in society. These people are not evil but are a result of our society as such since they are brought up to believe as such and act in their own interests. |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| gabs wrote: |
Your prison security argument would surely apply to the majority of prisoners. Lets kill them all. |
Not at all, people serving anything less than life (a "life means life" life, of course) have an incentive to not escape, the chance of release. But the argument in favour of the death penalty is all those people who have been locked up for say 346 years have an incentive not to kill the staff in prison or try to escape - i.e. they would get executed if they did that. And I like the idea of prison staff being protected in this way.
| gabs wrote: | | They won't be dying in vain obviously, the sight of their brains spattered across the whitewash walls will provide you and others with plenty of amusement. |
No, no, no, my amusement was not at seeing their brains spattered across the whitewash walls, but on seeing them escape afterwards! Lol |
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| gabs
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 02 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 318 | | : | | Location: Faringdon/ Birmingham |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think the death penalty is particulary attactive solution to some problems that people have presented society with such as terroism |
How exactly would the death penalty prevent terrorism? I appreciate that not all terrorist activity is suicide missions but as a whole terrorists tend to be pretty passionate about whatever cause they are fighting for and the threat of death is unlikely to have much impact on the whole.
| Quote: | | I believe that more often the problem is that society causes the problems from the start and the responsibility should lay on their heads to solve the problem. |
Exactly. Scapegoating people as 'evil' does no one any good. Please don't think I'm excusing criminal actions but to treat crimes as isolated cases that come out of the blue is dangerous and will not preven crime.
| Quote: | Lastly I put it to the people on this forum who have questioned whether retibution is correct that subjectively put in such a situation where your mother has been killed by a person in cold blood or your daughter was raped and murdered by a paedphile would you want to forgive and forget?
Would you really not want retribution? I feel that it would be very easy to say on one hand that you would but in reality your feelings would give rise to the need to get something back from the realities that have occurred. |
I can't claim to be able to understand the trauma of a relative being murdered. However I am confident that were I to suffer such a loss I would be so aware of the pain it causes that I would not want to inflict it on another family. Criminals have families too and regardless of their crimes many continue to love them and the pain of having them killed can be just as extreme as if that person were free. In the case of the Australian citizen executed in Singapore recently this pain was especially evident. Every day in the run up she would make emotonal pleas for her son to be spared and anyone who gets pleasure from seeing a mother suffer in that way is in my opinion not a very nice person.
I'm not entirely sure of your position on this Sazzle as you appear to contradict yourself but if as you originally stated you are in favour of the death penalty in some situations, this I would say is not a particularly christian view to take. Do you believe Christ today would be campaigning in favour of the death penalty? Or would he remind all the people getting caught up in their self righteous condemnations of evil and need for retribution of his quote "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?
I haven't mentioned miscarriages of justice as I consider the death penalty to be barbaric even if it was 100% accurate but Jesus is about the biggest miscarriage of justice you can imagine surely? Sure, he had to die for our sins etc but its even more shameful that this was carried out within a legal framework.
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| richm
Street Demonstrator
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 70 | | : | | Location: Birmingham |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | you are in favour of the death penalty in some situations, this I would say is not a particularly christian view to take |
I just can't see how its the case that supporting the death penalty can be seen as not very christian. After all, one of its main users was Henry VIII, who is believed to have executed 72,000 people. Now is this christan like, considering he set up the Church of England. It was used througout England's history when religion had a greater part in the lives of the population. So, i'm afraid that as the creater of the Church of England used it to kill 72000 people that committed crimes against him or the population, I fully support it and if christains have the same opinion then they are quite right to do so.
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| gabs
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 02 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 318 | | : | | Location: Faringdon/ Birmingham |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:46 am Post subject: |
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Yep you're right. Henry VIII was positively christlike, a truly model christian.
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| gabs wrote: | | Do you believe Christ today would be campaigning in favour of the death penalty? |
What would Jesus do?
"Kill 'em all and let God decide!"
Last edited by Teapotboy on Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Sazzle
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 12 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 219 | | : | | Location: The depths of selly oak |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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"How exactly would the death penalty prevent terrorism? I appreciate that not all terrorist activity is suicide missions but as a whole terrorists tend to be pretty passionate about whatever cause they are fighting for and the threat of death is unlikely to have much impact on the whole. "
I put it to you how would anything else prevent terrorism? It is a recognised global threat throughout the international relations. Terrorism is fueled by the very need to cause mass chaos to those that oppose them.... as we have seen in recent years this has been targetting key target points such as World Trade Centre and the London Underground. It is obvious that the message we are sending people currently is that we are a country that can be pushed around and a deterrents are obviously not working. If we put people in jail for the rest of their lives (I use the term life very loosely as now the court system equates life with about 15 years and in most cases less than that) what does this teach people? Our country has one of the most comparable with other ineffective criminal systems in the world. The use of the European Convention of Human Rights and the Human Rights Act 1998 ,that entered it into the domestic domain, allows criminals to claim for their rights such as the right to have porn etc.... they have some of the most comfortable lifestyles that man can afford all at the expense of the taxpayer may I add. What would it teach terroists to lock them up for the rest of their lives????? What added incentive is there not to bomb our countrymen (and women) or cause chaos throughout our lands. There is none!!!!!
"I'm not entirely sure of your position on this Sazzle as you appear to contradict yourself but if as you originally stated you are in favour of the death penalty in some situations, this I would say is not a particularly christian view to take. Do you believe Christ today would be campaigning in favour of the death penalty? Or would he remind all the people getting caught up in their self righteous condemnations of evil and need for retribution of his quote "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?
I haven't mentioned miscarriages of justice as I consider the death penalty to be barbaric even if it was 100% accurate but Jesus is about the biggest miscarriage of justice you can imagine surely? Sure, he had to die for our sins etc but its even more shameful that this was carried out within a legal framework."
I'm very glad to have a christian viewpoint dragged in upon the situation.... I must confess that I am the leading authority upon the subject so please don't shoot me down if I get it wrong! 
The rules of our country are in place and change significantly according to the generation and belief scheme that operates at the time.
"We are to obey the government God places over us. God created government to establish order and promote justice (Gen 9:6; 1Cor 14:33; Rom 12: ."
Romans 13:1-7 states: "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established."
However as signifies the death penalty I know that I contradict myself at times above, I believe in not putting across my viewpoint but seeing both sides of the argument and showing it to others to decide. It is very important that we have the full argument before a decision has been made. I am fully aware that it is very "unchristian" to campaign for the death penalty and I am not implicitly doing so. I am just stating that if the death penalty cannot and does not occur what should be put in its place? Especially to prevent our land from becoming a further target of terrorism activity. The fact is that people demand retribution, compensation and a way forward in our societys especially with all its material substance. Must we bow to their beliefs and except harsher punishments or should we allow our society to disintegrate and be lawless. It is very easy to argue for each standpoint.
A further point to be made... would you believe in the punishments that existed in schools and parenting by hitting children etc with canes in the later part of the 20th century????
Lastly.... Jesus did die for our sins yes.... BUT has anyone thought what about the implications if he had not actually died then and there??????
The whole christian religion would be in turmoil surely, there would be no way to go to heaven except through living a pure life which has been shown to be impossible since even our thoughts allow sins to enter our lives. The thing to think about is that if such a process hadn't existed to allow Jesus to die in such a manner would there be a christian religion (similar to ours today). Jesus did not only die to save us from our sins he offered the ultimate sacrifice.... it is also notable to look further into this that a new book of the Bible has recently been publicised by Judas allowing a different perspective to enter the scene. |
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| Posco Hamwich
Street Demonstrator
| | Joined: 12 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 83 | | : | | Location: Birmingham/London |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| gabs wrote: | | I'm not entirely sure of your position on this Sazzle as you appear to contradict yourself but if as you originally stated you are in favour of the death penalty in some situations, this I would say is not a particularly christian view to take. |
In exodus 21:12 the Israelites are told that “anyone who strikes a man and kills him shall surely be put to death” and lets not forget that “you shall not murder” is also one of the Ten Commandments. So there are good reasons for supporting the death sentence from a Christian point of view. However as pointed out elsewhere on this forum the bible contradicts itself quite a lot and there is good arguments for both sides of the argument
Personally I am in favour of the death penalty in certain cases, however I do not feel that it is appropriate that it should be carried out in the case of Moussaoui. It seems like he wants the death penalty so he can become a martyr and inspire other would be suicide bombers. Probably not a great way of preventing further terrorist actions. |
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| richm
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| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 70 | | : | | Location: Birmingham |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yep you're right. Henry VIII was positively christlike, a truly model christian. |
I’m glad that you approve of my example, In fact without him we would not have 16000 church buildings and 43 cathedrals, 13000 of them are listed adding to the freedom, cultural and social value of our country. Something that terrorists are attempting to remove.
So, i'm sure we can see with 42 million Christians now in Britain (Census 2001) and well over half CofE, I gave a fine example of a Christian that added to the movement and has indeed helped the lives of many people today.
So, someone that has positively created around 21 million Christians through creating a church does seem to be a role model for many. Even if some people see his actions of capital punishment for 72000 as wrong you seen him to be sinning. As god forgives sinners and the CofE believes this, his actions are deemed right as they were carried out in a religious context.
So Henry VIII is a role model to me. If people like him were still about, we may not have the problem of people robbing old people who fought in the war for our freedom. Bring back the death penalty, lets clean Britain up of all the filth that plague us and return to the values that terrorists are trying to remove through fear and the killing of innocent people.
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| gorky
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 26 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 164 | | : | |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I’m glad that you approve of my example, In fact without him we would not have 16000 church buildings and 43 cathedrals... |
What about the dissolution of the monasteries? Henry VIII destroyed a great many ancient monastries and divided the loot up amongst his cronies. These buildings were lost forever...
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...13000 of them are listed adding to the freedom, cultural and social value of our country. Something that terrorists are attempting to remove. |
Where are they listed as adding to our freedom?
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“But you are a thin-blooded lot! Ere you have grown up you are already overgrown and withered. You live like an old radish." - Maxim Gorky, The Man Who Was Afraid, Chapter 10. |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| gorky wrote: | | Quote: | | I’m glad that you approve of my example, In fact without him we would not have 16000 church buildings and 43 cathedrals... |
What about the dissolution of the monasteries? Henry VIII destroyed a great many ancient monastries and divided the loot up amongst his cronies. These buildings were lost forever...
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To pay for all the new churches, silly! |
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| Sazzle
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 12 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 219 | | : | | Location: The depths of selly oak |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I'm thinking that the example used of Henry VIII probably isn't the best example since he called for the dissolution of his marriage and pretty much divorce on the map... this pretty much undermines big parts of the Bible since the union of Marriage is meant to be eternal not just separated whenever we all feel its not going to well....
Anywayz I'm thinkin its maybe the right time to move back to talking about the death penalty and whether its right or not?!? Maybe a little off tangent.....
Sorry probably my fault
Sarah |
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| gabs
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 02 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 318 | | : | | Location: Faringdon/ Birmingham |
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| Posted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I put it to you how would anything else prevent terrorism? It is a recognised global threat throughout the international relations. Terrorism is fueled by the very need to cause mass chaos to those that oppose them.... as we have seen in recent years this has been targetting key target points such as World Trade Centre and the London Underground. It is obvious that the message we are sending people currently is that we are a country that can be pushed around and a deterrents are obviously not working. If we put people in jail for the rest of their lives (I use the term life very loosely as now the court system equates life with about 15 years and in most cases less than that) what does this teach people? |
How to stop terrorism? At the risk of going off topic I'd suggest a few things. Not declaring war on quite so many muslim countries. Putting an end to the illegal occupation of Iraq. Pulling American troops and bases out of Saudi Arabia and the rest of the middle East. Withdrawing political and military support for the illegal occupation of Palestine.
Theres plenty of things that could prevent terrorism. Martyring people who relish the idea of dying for their cause is not one of them.
| Quote: | The use of the European Convention of Human Rights and the Human Rights Act 1998 ,that entered it into the domestic domain, allows criminals to claim for their rights such as the right to have porn etc.... they have some of the most comfortable lifestyles that man can afford all at the expense of the taxpayer may I add. What would it teach terroists to lock them up for the rest of their lives????? What added incentive is there not to bomb our countrymen (and women) or cause chaos throughout our lands. There is none!!!!!
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Bah, rights for criminals. Whatever next. Ever been in prison Sarah? I haven't but if its this idyllic utopia of which you speak I'm off out now to get me arrested.
I would suggest that for many terrorists the idea of being locked up for life is more of a deterrent than dying in the line of duty for whatever cause it is that they believe so passionately in.
On the christian aspect i think we've demonstrated that the bible is ambiguous on this and I don't deny it. However of all the passages one could choose to back up a pro-death penalty stance it takes a bit of cheek to use "you shall not murder" in your argument. The common christian version of this of course is "thou shalt not kill"- just about as unequivocal as they come in its condemneation of the death penalty. Posco- I'd be interested to know where your "you shall not murder" quote came from as I have never heard that commandment interpreted in that way.
| Quote: | So Henry VIII is a role model to me. If people like him were still about, we may not have the problem of people robbing old people who fought in the war for our freedom. Bring back the death penalty, lets clean Britain up of all the filth that plague us and return to the values that terrorists are trying to remove through fear and the killing of innocent people.
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Good old Tudor England. Those were the days. If I could be anywhere in the world right now it would surely be Tudor England. That, or prison. How about a Tudor prison? Those must have been heaven on earth.
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