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| Oktober
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 20 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 290 | | : | | Location: Maple Skank |
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 Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ZiggyMarley wrote: | Ok Sid I concede that many religions do promote hatred. But how do you decided which religion you will show your hate towards? If you took away the religious hatred laws then all hell would break loose.
Why would this happen?
If it was taken away and everyone was Christian then it would be ok. People could insult Christians (in general) forever in the UK and they would just take it on the chin. But heaven forbid we could have free speech on the Islamic faith someone would say something and then we'd have riots all over the place. The religious hatred laws were brought in to protect over sensitive Muslims and to protect people from their OTT reactions. |
This is possibly the stupidest thing I've heard all year. and all last year too. I don't even know where to start with the things wrong with this post. |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Hence why we've both saved it for posterity now!! |
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| ZiggyMarley
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 31 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 306 | | : | | Location: Near The Goose/Leamington |
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Oktober wrote: | | ZiggyMarley wrote: | Ok Sid I concede that many religions do promote hatred. But how do you decided which religion you will show your hate towards? If you took away the religious hatred laws then all hell would break loose.
Why would this happen?
If it was taken away and everyone was Christian then it would be ok. People could insult Christians (in general) forever in the UK and they would just take it on the chin. But heaven forbid we could have free speech on the Islamic faith someone would say something and then we'd have riots all over the place. The religious hatred laws were brought in to protect over sensitive Muslims and to protect people from their OTT reactions. |
This is possibly the stupidest thing I've heard all year. and all last year too. I don't even know where to start with the things wrong with this post. |
Apart from you suggesting that religious hatred should be allowed. |
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| Oktober
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 20 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 290 | | : | | Location: Maple Skank |
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Arte you attempting to claim I am unreasonable? I just said that you can't make religious hatrid illegal because of free speach. You are the one making the preduduced and insulting stereotypes about muslims while also somehow ignoring reality. |
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| naivehottie
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 01 Apr 2006 | | Posts: 385 | | : | |
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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He should have said some Muslims, as some Muslims do heavily overreact (like the stupid overreaction to a few cartoons, while many of the same people are enjoying holocaust cartoons). While I don't encourage doing the cartoons, as it was unnecessary, the reaction was far far worse, and attacking anything remotely related to the country it was printed in.
Also some Muslim countries have an entire law based on hatred, including death penalties for people with a different belief or sexuality.
However, this doesn't mean individual Muslims can't be nice people as plenty are, for example baking cakes to aid poor people in Mali and Niger was a positive thing, so yeah I agree it's wrong to stereotype all Muslims, more a group of them. |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Oktober wrote: | | Arte you attempting to claim I am unreasonable? I just said that you can't make religious hatrid illegal because of free speach. You are the one making the preduduced and insulting stereotypes about muslims while also somehow ignoring reality. |
Free speech is not absolute and should not be either. |
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| Oktober
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 20 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 290 | | : | | Location: Maple Skank |
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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i don't think that free speach should be absolute, I'm in favour of anti racial hatrid laws, and I would like to see them bring in laws against inciting hatrid based on sexuality, but religion is different because its not just an incidental thing, its actually an active belief, and I don't think beliefs and opinions should be protected. If people have the right to express religious views, then people should have the right to express opposition to them.
The stupidest thing about ziggy's post was him saying that all hell would break loose if we got rid of the religious hatrid laws, well, we didn't have them till recently and I don't recall there being mayhem in the streets before then. |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Oktober wrote: | i don't think that free speach should be absolute, I'm in favour of anti racial hatrid laws, and I would like to see them bring in laws against inciting hatrid based on sexuality, but religion is different because its not just an incidental thing, its actually an active belief, and I don't think beliefs and opinions should be protected. If people have the right to express religious views, then people should have the right to express opposition to them.
The stupidest thing about ziggy's post was him saying that all hell would break loose if we got rid of the religious hatrid laws, well, we didn't have them till recently and I don't recall there being mayhem in the streets before then. |
But based on "sexuality" presumably would deal largely with incitement against people practicing alternative sexualities, which is just as much an "active belief" and decision as religion. Shagging guys is not like race or disability or sex, something you cannot help, it is a choice you are making, just like being Christian.
Or is it that you are happy for people to walk through the streets saying "Burn the Christians" but not quite so happy about the thought of "Shoot the queers" |
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| Oktober
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 20 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 290 | | : | | Location: Maple Skank |
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:05 am Post subject: |
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For a start, I thought people had got past the whole 'sexuality is a choice' thing, and secondly, it can't be described as an 'active belief', being gay isn't some sort of statement, you're not expressing any kind of opinion by being gay, you're not asserting anything, your comparison makes no sense.
Anyway, it is illegal to go through the street saying "burn the christians", because that is incitement to violence, which is illegal anyway. The same if you were to call for burning gays, however strangly when various artists made songs saying exactly that the CPS refused to take any action.
If your going to have protection against incitement to hatrid for religious belief, then you should have it for political belief, theres no real difference, one is an interpretation of how the world works and how people should behave, the other is an interpretation of how the world works and how people should behave. If someone bases the things they believe and how they act off reading the Bible, and someone else bases the things they believe and how they act off reading Das Kapital, why should one of them get special protection, and the other shouldn't? |
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| naivehottie
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 01 Apr 2006 | | Posts: 385 | | : | |
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
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What Josh meant by sexuality is a choice is not that you choose who you're attracted to, but that you choose who, if anyone, you have sex with.
If you want to distinguish between discrimination against who someone is, and against what someone does or believes then discrimination against someone based on who they're attracted to is discriminating against who they are, while discriminating against someone based on who they ahve sex with is discrimination against them for what they do, so is as valid as discrimination against people based on religion.
Everyone chooses who they have sex with, just because you're attracted to someone doesn't mean you have sex with them, but by doing so it's a personal choice to do so.
Anyway I think hating someone for their choice like this is wrong, whether it should be illegal is a different matter. It's fine to disagree with the actions of others, but if they don't harm you or others, then you should respect their right to choose what to do/believe.
However, discriminating on the grounds of race, gender, disability or who someone is attracted to is clearly wrong always. |
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| SarcasmStealthSquad
Street Demonstrator
| | Joined: 22 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 50 | | : | |
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | But based on "sexuality" presumably would deal largely with incitement against people practicing alternative sexualities, which is just as much an "active belief" and decision as religion. Shagging guys is not like race or disability or sex, something you cannot help, it is a choice you are making, just like being Christian.
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Now this is as stupid as that comment about over reacting muslims.
Ok if sexuality is a choice try this out. (For the purposes of this arguement I'm assuming you're straight.) Be gay for a week. Make the decision to only be attrracted to guys. See how successful you are at doing that. |
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| naivehottie
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 01 Apr 2006 | | Posts: 385 | | : | |
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| SarcasmStealthSquad wrote: | | Quote: | But based on "sexuality" presumably would deal largely with incitement against people practicing alternative sexualities, which is just as much an "active belief" and decision as religion. Shagging guys is not like race or disability or sex, something you cannot help, it is a choice you are making, just like being Christian.
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Now this is as stupid as that comment about over reacting muslims.
Ok if sexuality is a choice try this out. (For the purposes of this arguement I'm assuming you're straight.) Be gay for a week. Make the decision to only be attrracted to guys. See how successful you are at doing that. |
You're wrong about Josh's sexuality.
Anyway the point he was making was that it's an active choice to have sex with someone, but not who you're attracted to.
Having sex is not an incidental thing but a personal choice. Being attracted to someone is an incidental thing that you can't choose.
Hope that explains it. |
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| hannoir
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 22 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 339 | | : | | Location: in a hole |
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| PeterM
Street Demonstrator
| | Joined: 23 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 64 | | : | |
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| gorky wrote: |
4. Acting as watchdog for the religious socieities |
This is a horrific comment, i hope you dont actualy mean to say what i think you do. |
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| whatdoyoucare
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 110 | | : | |
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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PeterM:
"gorky wrote:
4. Acting as watchdog for the religious socieities
This is a horrific comment, i hope you dont actualy mean to say what i think you do."
What did you think he meant? |
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