The Radish

Re: Cartoons

ciaran.mooney — Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:59 pm

Author: ciaran.mooney

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:59 pm

Evening All,

ibby wrote:

These cartoons are inciteful - and if there were any genuine point of discussion in terms of creating intellectual debate, I would genuinely consider entering into dialogue; but with these cartoons, it is absolutely futile.

I do believe there is a valid point of discussion. Through ridicule we can see our imperfections. The cartoons as offensive as they were show a common view of what people believe Islam to be.

They have done it and it cannot be undone, we now have to deal with the aftermath. It must be addressed.

I believe an article has to be written on why and how this came to be the view of Islam, the Islamic response and future should the percieved conflict between Islam and the western continue.

Or maybe how Islam and western free speech culture will have to adapt to be enable both to be productive.

As free speech goes Islam is as much a target as Christianity, or Judaism, it's just that these two religions have become apathetic. I think the cartoons have been hijacked by agressive factions of Islam, as an example of Western culture's contempt for their religion. I don't believe mass riots involving the injury of innocents is what either want.

Would it be impossible for a muslim to accept the crisitism in the cartoons as an attack on Islamic culture, rather than the religion itself?

Ps. I love the quote Ibby, "The ink of the scholar is more sacred than the blood of the martyr."

Re: Cartoons

Anonymous — Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:35 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:35 pm

Freedom of speech should be upheld.... only if you adhere to the fundamantal rule...... 'don't be dick'!

Re: Cartoons

ruthie — Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:12 pm

Author: ruthie

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:12 pm

absolutely, i didn't mean to belittle it. do forgive

Re: Cartoons

nick_b — Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:11 am

Author: nick_b

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:11 am

er...no. just had a look now, and can only find descriptions of them on wikipedia. to be honest, not great with technological stuff, so may be missing something, or they may have been removed. but i want some credit for my extensive searching. it was really very committed of me i felt.

Re: Cartoons

ruthie — Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:02 pm

Author: ruthie

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:02 pm

nick_b wrote:

after extensive curious searching, i found the cartoons on the internet. .

surely you found them rather snappily on wikipedia?

Re: Cartoons

ibby — Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:24 pm

Author: ibby

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:24 pm

i signed up now! just to confirm (like anyone cares?) I am the same ibby as the guest posting previously on this topic! [above, and elsewhere]

Re: Cartoons

Anonymous — Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:56 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:56 pm

Again, for the third time! lol - I have posted on the other threads, but just so that you do get a muslim response to what is essentially an attack on muslims/islam.

I'm glad to see you guys at Radish have the sense to realise that this is not a fight to preserve freedom of speech - but moreover, a chance to villify muslims. Whether intentional or not, it is doing exactly that.

Actually, now I'm not so sure about even fighting to preserve freedom of speech, as there probably is a bit too much of it here in the UK; after the BNP leader got let off for many of the charges which he was accused of, when he clearly stated in the program he would be jailed for saying those same things in public. Sheikh Abu Hamza has been imprisoned without actually lifting a finger, for murder I believe - then I don't see how the BNP leader has not been imprisoned, for clearly stating he has a war against Islam in particular, and used many other adjectives to describe muslims and described what he would have done to them (us).

These cartoons are inciteful - and if there were any genuine point of discussion in terms of creating intellectual debate, I would genuinely consider entering into dialogue; but with these cartoons, it is absolutely futile.

As I said before, anti-semetic pictures would not be accepted, e.g. denying the Holocaust? That is a sensitive topic for Jews, and should be respected. The Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) is more important to us than our own parents; and to insult him, is worse than insulting our parents and moreover, is insulting everything we believe to be pure and correct - namely, Islam; as he embodied the religion in his actions.

Don't do it!

Andy — Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:36 pm

Author: Andy

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:36 pm

Hi folks, i haven't read through the whole thread but i think that it would be a TOTAL mistake to print those cartoons.

At a time when Muslims are being villified, and the BNP has now decided that its strategy for the local elections is to 'make May 4th referendum on Islam day', you need to stand out AGAINST racism.
(Yes I know Muslims can be of any race, but in the uk, right now, 'Muslim' is a racial category. An atheist socialist asian friend of mine has been searched 3 times on the London underground, they told him it was cos he 'fits the profile' ie brown skin)

The cartoons show Mohammed with a bomb for a turban. This is a clearly Islamaphobic racist image, conveying the notion that all muslims are suicide bombers. Publishing it would serve no good purpose, and would make it harder for Muslims and non-Muslims to engage in real discussion about free speech, justice, whatever.

Free speech is not an absolute unqualified right, to be exercised mindlessly whatever the context. There are restrictions on it that we generally accept in areas such as child pornography, incitement to racial hatred and so on.

You need to CHOOSE not to publish. It's not censorship, it's responsibility!!

Re: Cartoons

Anonymous — Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:29 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:29 pm

Scruffy, all members of the radish are different people, we don't share an ideology so please try and respond to each person individually and don't confuse our opinions.

The diabolical misuse of power article didn't go into the printed radish this week. All articles are posted on this website before sunday midnight so that people have time to react and engage so we can make sure that people have a chance to comment on what goes in. This is a good system, you took issue with John's innacurate piece and he's rewriting it.

The thread asking for bad stories about the guild was pretty roundly criticised as i remember. In fact i think in many of these threads there have been numerous calls for everything said to be constructive and positive. However, we have no control over what other people say. We have no party whip! If someone wants to ask for bad guild stories and write an article about it then they can. If someone wants to ask for bad radish stories and write an article about it they can. It's a free forum and we have no control over it (apart from choosing the titles of the threads, obv.) If articles get written then the editing team of the printed radish will decide what goes in based on whether it lives up to their idea of what their page should be.

I think you are still feeling very defensive and sort of self-obsessed here. Guild politics are only one part of society out of many that people may want to praise or criticise.

musing

scruffy — Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:08 pm

Author: scruffy

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 3:08 pm

nick_b wrote:

seems scruffy may be basing all his opinions of the paper on the seemingly widespread assumption that all of us hate the guild, without having any evidence for this.

The article 'diabolical misuse of power' is probably my best example. While this didn't HATE the Guild, it made very clear that there was a fault with the Guild, and this was inaccurate. We have also seen threads with 'tell me how the Guild is rubbish' as its plea for constructive debate. I think, that while the nobility of some members is to be commended, the ball may be rolling without you. The existence of the Radish itself clearly shows a belief that the Guild facilities are inadequate for production of this material. Not exactly a compliment is it?

And of course I've read the bloody Radish. Its laid out in pdf on these forums for gods sake! I'm not quite that detached from students, in this high ivory tower that I occupy, that I'm incapable of clicking on the threads marked issue 3.

I don't mean you avoid all mention of BUGS at all; I saw many of you in the bar on Friday I believe, but that isn't what we're talking about. This is about democracy and representation and here I think the Radish has been sadly missing. And that's sincere. Democracy needs dissent and my worry is that we're making it here and not where it matters. This forum is by no means accountable or representative. It reminds me of an equipped soldier unit ready to go, but the battle is being fought over the hill.

If you had come three years ago and made your points and changed the nature of student polictics then maybe Joe Rooney would be President now and the world would be a happier place, wouldn't it...

nick_b wrote:

scruffy asks why we didn't do it years ago - for the simple, and one may have thought obvious, reason that we weren't at uni years ago. we have now come to the time when we could fundamentally change the things that we dont like about the guild, which we can only achieve by being centrally involved.

I don't mean to be disparaging here, but neither was I and I'm managing fine. Even when I wasn't an exec member, I changed a fair bit just by being an activist for the group that I represented on GC. To quote the West Wing, which I probable do too much, 'democracy happens when people turn up'. If you don't go, then you can't expect the change.

If you're going to run for exec, well done. When people say you're in your ivory tower and start another forum much like this, don't say I didn't warn you , but well done. My problem is that you didn't before but expect it to represent what you wanted now, and that puzzles me.

Re: Cartoons

nick_b — Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:42 pm

Author: nick_b

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:42 pm

I think the Guild Exec may still be attrbuting opinions and aims to The Radish that none of us have ever purported to hold. The printed version of the Radish is supposed to spark debate and encourage critical engagement with the world around us. I think all of us have found that people have been really enthusiastic. I'm not entirely convinced that Scruffy has actually read a copy - as Jimmy says there has been almost no direct criticism of the guild - it seems scruffy may be basing all his opinions of the paper on the seemingly widespread assumption that all of us hate the guild, without having any evidence for this.

Amongst the people who have been involved with the Radish so far, the majority are involved in guild societies, many run societies, many volunteer with Involve groups. to say that we are boycotting the guild is nonsense. and yes, a number of us are intending to run for guild exec - which scruffy refers to as a 'beautiful irony' - why is it ironic? scruffy asks why we didn't do it years ago - for the simple, and one may have thought obvious, reason that we weren't at uni years ago. we have now come to the time when we could fundamentally change the things that we dont like about the guild, which we can only achieve by being centrally involved. i'm sure scruffy will be a worthy candidate, but i for one will not be voting for him.

Re: Cartoons

Anonymous — Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:45 pm

Author: Anonymous

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:45 pm

As the only guild execrepresentative that many of us know about to post on this website scruffy seems to feel that all criticism of the guild exec is directed at him. I'm pretty sure he's mistaken. He is part of a group which i for one think could have 'thought outside the box' considerably more than it has, but he is only one of this group.

Scruffy still makes the mistake of referring to the radish as though were some united group plotting in some way to annoy the guild exec.

1st, in the 3 printed radishes there's hardly any criticism of the exec.
2nd, we're a group with mixed opinions. We want to voice our opinions in print because we want people to think about the issues we talk about.

The printed radish is not an anti-guild mouthpiece, it's an alternative newspaper.

Encouraging people to question the guild exec's decisions is good. If you're doing that good a job people will disagree with us.

If you don't think people will continue to read our paper because it's just a bunch of our opinions about stuff then fair do's. I guess we'll see.

i wonder why any problems we have shouldn't be aired here (a free forum). Why shouldn't anyone with a particular grievance or opinion raise it here and give anyone who wants to reply the opportunity to do so. My point is that on this website you have the opportunity to tell anyone who reads it what you think and if your critics are wrong, why they're wrong. This is as much a platform for you as it is for anyone.

Finally, do not confuse this forum with the printed Radish. Whilst there has been some criticism of the guild here by certain individuals (to which you have responded and to which absolutely anyone can respond) the printed Radish hasn't really had that much bad press for you in it.

(when i said finally i obviously didnt mean it) I take on board your criticism that some people who have had problems with the guild have not done enough about it. (however i know plenty of people who have directly attempted to change but failed. You'll ask me for examples, when i have more time i promise i'll post them here) I for one am trying now rectify this error. This website is doing something. It gives anyone an opportunity to talk about how uni could be. It gives you all an opportunity to see what people are thinking (hopefully it will grow and grow and you will have the opportunity to see the views of a broader spectrum). The printed radish is doing something. We have written articles about issues that we feel passionate about and that we want people to read. we want people to think about things and question things and so we've set up two tools to help them do it.
DO NOT imply that the radish is purely an anti-guild organ. We have no agenda other than to get people talking.

i will spell that out; to me, as one individual involved in the radish, the radish should be encouraging people to question things and think about things. It should encourage debate. To my mind it is doing that. So when you say people involved in the radish should actually do something, i for one think they are. the radish, for me, is achieving what i want it to achieve.

This really is my last point. Just by writing a disclaimer before an insult it does not take away the insulting part of it.

The radish will continue. It will grow. It will change. I think it will continue to attempt to hold everyone to account, hopefully as constructively as possible.

awww

scruffy — Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:12 pm

Author: scruffy

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 7:12 pm

I'd like to thank Dear Prudence for what was actually a nice message about me . Haven't seen many of those.

I just want to repeat that I love independent student action. Love it. I would hope that you can see that on other threads. Although, clearly, I'm a possessor of minority opinons on some issues, I like that we talk about them.

I just really want the Radish to up its game. You could be fantastic but the word that currently comes to mind, and please take this constructively, is 'wannabe'. I hope you can become better but I am really concerned that after the novelty wears off, people won't be that excited about reading the personal opinions of about 20 unsatisfied people. Its like reading a diary, not a paper and I would love to help you, but I fear that this is where the problem comes. Most of the complaints in the Radish is that the Exec are stifling student opnion, yet here I am, supporting you. When are we going to get the reciprocal support?

I wanted to speak about Vlads post too, which was very good. I was glad that he highlighted, in one sentence, my whole issue.

THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CHANGE THE GUILD IS STUDENT ENGAGEMENT.

Very true. So why aren't you? Of COURSE Elections Commitee isn't the only way to get involved, but the Radish is currently making disengagement into an almost Zenlike level of attainment. Not with the issues - I have loved the excited debates we've been having - but with the change. What is the point in hating something, wanting to change it, and then thinking that the best way to achieve that is an effectual boycott. I don't like boycotts - they don't work. Engaging with the beast is the only way to tame it. There is bugger all use in talking about taming it, planning to tame it, deciding why you want to tame it, showing films about taming it, but then choosing NOT to tame it because you are that annoyed at it. I have no doubt that some people on this forum may run in the Exec elections (which is a beautiful irony in itself) but why didn't you do that years ago? In other posts, there were more or less unvieled allusions to the fact that the forum think that my year on Exec has produced nothing. Fair point. I strongly disagree, but then I would. But why in the name of God do you raise it here, where I am under no obligation to answer, read or think about it? Have you come to GC and attacked me? Even written me ONE email? Come to one of my drop in sessions? No? Then, with all due respect, how dare you expect me to have done what you wanted. To quote Sir Humphrey (a link some people might find some irony in) 'One is not a mind reader, is one?

THE ONLY THING THAT CAN CHANGE THE GUILD IS STUDENT ENGAGEMENT? I suggest you start. It is probably fairly obvious that I intend to run for President. One of my key issues is making students lead the Guild. Doubt my ability if you like, but not my integrity. I do actually work hard for students and if you want me to work harder or differently, then for fucks sake tell me properly instead of posting here.

Hope that is OK, I got a bit ranty there, I hope you can see the sentiment.

Re: six of one...

Dear Prudence — Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:57 am

Author: Dear Prudence

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:57 am

Anonymous wrote:

If you really care about the student community, then you should welcome the radish. (I think that maybe you do, but i'm really not sure!)

I thought Scruffy's post was excellent. However, it seems that most people have chosen to nitpick over what he's said and insist on further criticism rather than focusing on the admirable things he says. This quote is just one example of that. Did the following quote from Scruffy not show you that he's fully welcoming of the Radish:

Scruffy wrote:

I love the Radish... I love and embrace new things and I hope that the Radish goes for many years.

Maybe it's time to take a little of what a member of the dreaded Guild Exec said rather than merely pick holes in some of the perceived weaknesses in his post.

Re: Cartoons

Aphrodite — Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:07 am

Author: Aphrodite

Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:07 am

After all the trouble that these cartoons have caused, anyone considering to republish them is surely either stupid, or just trying to stir up trouble for sensationalism...