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| Johnny P
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 11 Oct 2006 | | Posts: 101 | | : | |
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 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah...that is like a social/commuinity co-operative. A workers co-op with specific things in its articles might be a smoother way of running the operation though...but it would beinteresting to see how a stakeholder led community co-op would work.
Oh, and i think its time someone read some boring law...then they can tell us about how its meant to work. I imagine its all contained in the constitution though. I would think that anything passed by council is binding and certain things have to be put through council in a procedural fashion...or at least that how it should be  .
This reminds me...education not for sale wrote a really good document on ultra vires. If you dont know what that is then you should obviously read the document! Ill put up a link soon, but if anyone wants it they can PM me.
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"...a society that believes in nothing is particularly frightened by people who believe in anything." Bill Durodle, Director International Centre for Security Analysis, Kings College London |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Once you try and do anything to do with money in the Guild they tell you it's ultra vires and there is no way of proving it isn't - as they will quote things from meetings behind closed doors which they "are not allowed to tell you". |
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| Johnny P
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 11 Oct 2006 | | Posts: 101 | | : | |
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Once you try and do anything to do with money in the Guild they tell you it's ultra vires and there is no way of proving it isn't - as they will quote things from meetings behind closed doors which they "are not allowed to tell you". |
Thats why people need to read this document. It dispels most of the myths about ultra vires, and challenges abuses of the concept like the example you have given.
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"...a society that believes in nothing is particularly frightened by people who believe in anything." Bill Durodle, Director International Centre for Security Analysis, Kings College London |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | On the co-op front (I'm not getting involved in the socialism debate) |
That's a shame steven, it's a very interesting debate,  not very relevant to the thread I'll grant you! 
| Quote: | | This is always a tickler. The labour government could not be more disconnected from the labour movement...as for the party, well, they are n't doing anything about the government are they? Its ok comrades! Its OK! Its all a means to an end, the party will transport us into a brilliant socialist utopia - this is all part of their great plan! Now come on get to the polling station and keep those nasty tories out of power, they may be plannining to do exactly the same as us but its about the ends not the means! |
Indeed I agree with those sentiments, I would go as far as to say that, for the labour movement to keep any kind of connection with the party is pointless, I fear the party is rotten to the core (I hope I am wrong I really do). It would be therefore worth trade unions, progressives, radicals, left-leaning liberals, starting up a new party, which would be free of the new labour sell-out, free of RESPECT and SWP dogma, free of Lib Dem flip-flopping and would pack more of a punch than the Green Party. I know I should be looking more radically at how to reform the politically landscape and how to re-shape society out of the neo-liberalist trap, but one step at a time.
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Big Brother is watching YOU! |
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| scruffy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 29 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 120 | | : | | Location: birmingham |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| JulienP wrote: | | Why see it as a commercial activity? Why not see it as part of our student development remit?. |
Really flippantly because it involves money, trade and some sort of transational exchanges between customer and providor which the Guild doesn't benefit from finacnially. In a co-op money stays within the group in the form of dividends or investment. We can't fund an enterprise of that nature if we don't make money from it which we then put into our objectives of academic representation, societies and social space. And I meant something which ONLY kept money within itself without giving anything to the Guild. If A co-op was in the Guild I'd be very happy, but setting it up is a deviation from core activity that I couldn't support.
We get rent and so forth from Subway so that is fine.
Steven, that policy is entirely possible to write and I'd be more than happy to second it, but it is unlikely to happen. We don't control the use of space in the Union Building because the University own it. We couldn't accept any lease without their sayso and it has to fit into their retail strategy. Come and see Sabrina or me please, if you have more questions.
And Jonny P, you are the most absolute person I've ever read! Steven has said something, and if I disagree I must then reject Subway? I really get annoyed that you think I can't be a socialist because I'm sensible. I bloody well am a socialist and disagree with the government often. There is no tick box chart t being a real left winger. Most people don't even know what I think on 99% of public policy so please calm down, or buy me a pint and ask me stuff. This sort of continued conversation is doing my head in.
Love and new year best wishes etc
_________________
"the hardest thing to do in politics is nothing"
President of the Guild of Students |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And I meant something which ONLY kept money within itself without giving anything to the Guild. |
I think steven explained in his last post how the workers' co-op would keep money in the guild.
Have I understood this correctly, you could accept an offer from the co-op providing they can pay the rent, but the uni has a veto? This is the first I've heard of this, I knew we rented the building, but I thought we had full say over what went on inside it, even though granted last year I thought there was a monopoly for HAS for catering which did limit options a bit.
| Quote: | | I really get annoyed that you think I can't be a socialist because I'm sensible. I bloody well am a socialist and disagree with the government often. There is no tick box chart t being a real left winger. |
I believe it was you who said that, it is others who define you not you. Now, unless you're willing to now say that there is no central radish opinion, that me steven and others are not in fact radishers because no such thing exists, then I am afraid I shall have to define you as a right of centrist 
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| scruffy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 29 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 120 | | : | | Location: birmingham |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| JulienP wrote: | | Now, unless you're willing to now say that there is no central radish opinion, that me steven and others are not in fact radishers because no such thing exists, then I am afraid I shall have to define you as a right of centrist |
I've no problem how anyone defines my political views pet, I'm just perpetually puzzled as to how they come about though - for example you think I'm right of centre based on what exactly? Which of my opinions make you say that? Which motions proposed/speeches made/votes taken make that an opinion? THAT is what puzzles me, not that other people HAVE a view, but where it comes from.
And the Uni own the building even though we occupy. Its pretty much the same as your house and sub-letting. You can't do it and neither can we without our landlord's permission.
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"the hardest thing to do in politics is nothing"
President of the Guild of Students |
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| steven
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 30 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 406 | | : | | Location: Selly Park |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: |
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Yo Gaz,
| scruffy wrote: | | In a co-op money stays within the group in the form of dividends or investment. |
As I've said, my knowledge of co-ops is mostly based around the Radical Routes model, where I understand that any profit is required to be reinvested. Either way, there's nothing I know of to stop us putting something to this effect in the members agreement.
| Quote: | | We can't fund an enterprise of that nature if we don't make money from it which we then put into our objectives of academic representation, societies and social space. |
I never intended the Guild to fund it. My thoughts were, the co-op gets a loan from Radical Routes for the lease. They pay back the loan with money they make from the business. Anything left over at the end of the financial year is profit, which goes into good causes. The Guild puts no money in, but essentially 'gets' extra money at the end of it (although that money would be restricted in use to good causes)
| Quote: | | If A co-op was in the Guild I'd be very happy, but setting it up is a deviation from core activity that I couldn't support. |
Again, this suggests the Guild Exec and staff have to take a heavy hand in setting it up, something I don't really envisage. The biggest issue is finding people to start the co-op. Once they've been found, they can do the major footwork, with some helpful input from Guild people - registering as a co-op, form filling, drawing up business/financial plans, attending Radical Routes meetings.
| Quote: | | Steven, that policy is entirely possible to write and I'd be more than happy to second it, but it is unlikely to happen. We don't control the use of space in the Union Building because the University own it. We couldn't accept any lease without their sayso and it has to fit into their retail strategy. Come and see Sabrina or me please, if you have more questions. |
Now this appears to be the sticking point. I will have questions, but it's a bit late to think of them right now.
| Quote: | | Love and new year best wishes etc |
You too.
PS: bizarrely, a thread we initially thought was about boring BUCF posters is now on its 4th page. Bless those Conservatives - they've unwittingly started a proper discussion! |
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| Johnny P
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 11 Oct 2006 | | Posts: 101 | | : | |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 2:09 am Post subject: |
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...it is quite a clear distinction. Co-ops arent like communes gary, they are like businesses, or to be more precise, incorporated organisations, the difference being that corporations operate to return the largest amount of money as possible to their stock holders by generating the largest amount of profit they can. Co-ops tend to work for the benefit of people, usually their members, however, that doesnt preclude them from behaving as a business and using that money to service a lease or pay wages.
Oh..and here is that ENS Ultra Vires briefing : http://www.free-education.org.uk/ultraviresbriefing.pdf
(just in case you are wondering i would rather be dead than affiliated with ENS at this current moment in time )
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"...a society that believes in nothing is particularly frightened by people who believe in anything." Bill Durodle, Director International Centre for Security Analysis, Kings College London |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| scruffy wrote: | | JulienP wrote: | | Now, unless you're willing to now say that there is no central radish opinion, that me steven and others are not in fact radishers because no such thing exists, then I am afraid I shall have to define you as a right of centrist |
I've no problem how anyone defines my political views pet, I'm just perpetually puzzled as to how they come about though - for example you think I'm right of centre based on what exactly? Which of my opinions make you say that? Which motions proposed/speeches made/votes taken make that an opinion? THAT is what puzzles me, not that other people HAVE a view, but where it comes from. |
I feel that you are too willing to compromise when it comes to the market, the whole subway thing is an example, not thinking enough outside the box. That's why I think that. Yes I do assume too much about your views it is true, and if I am honest I would say you are centrist, the right of centre comment was said to wind you up. You do occasionally pleasantly surprise me when I learn your views.
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And the Uni own the building even though we occupy. Its pretty much the same as your house and sub-letting. You can't do it and neither can we without our landlord's permission. |
Right, I am actually curious (This is not criticism so do not take it as such!), what do you think the uni would have against a co-op getting the lease? Could you outline their potential objections? What is it exactly about their retail strategy that would be at risk, now that they have given up the monopoly of providing hot food on campus?
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| scruffy
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| | Joined: 29 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 120 | | : | | Location: birmingham |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Julien - I disagree with the way you classify me, but I'm glad that you see I am working in an environment I dislike and trying to get the best out of it.
The University has given the Guild a LICENSE to occupy the builing but we don't have the ability to sub-let without their permission. The University's Director of Retail has a vision of campus and I think the difference is this
She might not be against The Co-op (indeed, previous conversations that Sabrina has had with her have pushed the fact that we'd prefer a Co-op bank to HSBC and The Co-op to be the retail providor on campus.
BUT I do think she'd be against any other co-op just because one is so experimental and the brand is so unknown. She wants Bham to be an attractive brand.
Let me talk to Sabrina, and get back to you. I'll think about it - I'm definitely in favour of accepting rent from a co-op than anything esle but it isn't really Resource's Committee's decision.
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"the hardest thing to do in politics is nothing"
President of the Guild of Students |
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| Teapotboy
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| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Don't worry scruffy JulienP calls everyone right-wing if they aren't running right behind him to storm the Winter Palace. And I jsut know that comment is gonna get a cheer from him... can almost hear that broad northern accent now... |
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| JulienP
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| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:04 am Post subject: |
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You're centrist as well Josh I know I am left-wing Josh, but I aint Russian, so it'd have to be the storming of 10 Downing Street
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| steven
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 30 Jan 2006 | | Posts: 406 | | : | | Location: Selly Park |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| scruffy wrote: | | Let me talk to Sabrina, and get back to you. I'll think about it - I'm definitely in favour of accepting rent from a co-op than anything esle but it isn't really Resource's Committee's decision. |
Nice one. |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| JulienP wrote: | | You're centrist as well Josh I know I am left-wing Josh, but I aint Russian, so it'd have to be the storming of 10 Downing Street |
But if you're left wing but get nothing done you may as well be right wing. Least I've many left-wing achievements such as getting the hot air driers to work in Joe's gents toilets. I work for the people. |
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