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| the guerilla
Street Demonstrator
 | | Joined: 27 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 69 | | : | | Location: the dark sides |
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| Enlightened_Bystander
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 16 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 100 | | : | |
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 Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I'm glad we have policy specifically against this
_________________
Peter Lloyd
MEng Software Engineering, 4th Year
CS Guild Councillor 2005-2007
Independent Chair May-July 2007
Wargames Chair 2004-06
General Commitee Functionary- 2004-07 |
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| naivehottie
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 01 Apr 2006 | | Posts: 385 | | : | |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'll need to know more about the situation before I can reserve judgment as if they are targeting all Muslims then it is wrong and racist, but if they are targetting genuine extremists then I'd rather see them stopped than see innocent people blown up.
It's a hard balance, but preserving human life has got to be first priority, there's no human rights law protecting your right to be an extremist |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Who defines extremist? You can use the argument that human rights doesn't give right to extremism to outlaw any non-mainstream political thought.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| To me I think it is the police's job to do this, not the Students Union. |
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
 | | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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Um actually the Govt. has issued guidance to HE institutions saying it is their responsibility to monitor groups on campus, and it is a crime not to report incitement etc. where they know it is happening.
You can't tell if they're an extremist until you monitor them, so all this talk of "it's ok to monitor them so long as they're extremists" is empty rhetoric. If you're holding an event as an affiliated group or using campus facilities you should really not expect to be free from some level of supervision - that goes for any group not just religious/political ones. |
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| JulienP
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| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Teapotboy wrote: | Um actually the Govt. has issued guidance to HE institutions saying it is their responsibility to monitor groups on campus, and it is a crime not to report incitement etc. where they know it is happening.
You can't tell if they're an extremist until you monitor them, so all this talk of "it's ok to monitor them so long as they're extremists" is empty rhetoric. If you're holding an event as an affiliated group or using campus facilities you should really not expect to be free from some level of supervision - that goes for any group not just religious/political ones. |
Why cos we might let off a bomb? Oh get real. Again define extremist, and why is it the government's definition that counts?
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Why? Because the Govt. (and the police etc. etc.) are responsible for protecting everyone from terrorism. And it might not be PC to say it - but it is a fact that, among other places, universities have been places where like-minded wankers have got together and plotted their crimes. It is naive and irresponsible not to be alert for it happening again. |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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Like minded wankers plot what I'd define as crimes in Number 10 Downing Street, can I observe them? Can I f**k. I don't care what the government says (and like that's new to anyone) unions job is to fight for and represent students not spy on them. The government bombs countries to buggery and we the people have to live with the consequences of pissing off people enough so more turn to extremism.
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| Teapotboy
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| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| But this is the difference between me and you - I don't believe that being annoyed at something is aneough reason to blow up innocent people. I don't think that the Govt. should have to appease people committing terrorism, should have to change its foreign policy in response to people killing innocent people. Respond to peaceful protests, posters, petitions yes. But terrorism? Never |
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| JulienP
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 04 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 463 | | : | | Location: Selly Park, Birmingham |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Nor do I actually, but that goes for governments as well whether they be in America, the UK, Israel, France or wherever. Just cos you don't like someone's domestic policy, is no reason to violate international law IMO. It is not about appeasement, it is about common sense. The government's actions make it easier for terrorists to brainwash people and create more terrorists. And now the government is saying unions have to clean up their mess and do their dirty work by violating people's freedom.
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| Teapotboy
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 05 Mar 2006 | | Posts: 691 | | : | | Location: Hamburg, Germany |
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| Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Um what freedom are they violating exactly? The Uni hardly has to provide rooms for groups to use, nor does the Guild - both should be able to check that their resources are being used appropriately - no differently to if every Monday at LINKS we all just got drunk and rolled around on the floor together (um that does happen but hey) |
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| Georgy Porgy
Street Demonstrator
| | Joined: 21 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 67 | | : | | Location: Unknown |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Teapotboy wrote: | | Um what freedom are they violating exactly? The Uni hardly has to provide rooms for groups to use, nor does the Guild - both should be able to check that their resources are being used appropriately - |
big up teapot
I agree with Teapot boy's contributions to the thread thus far....
the threat posed by extremism (of a racially and religiously intolerant, peace- and life-threatening nature) surely necessitates some kind of dilligence on the part of the guild?
I can understand a reluctance to be 'spied on', but in this instance this is unfounded IMO. what do you stand to lose? if the 'spies' were gathering crucial information about me i would be worried. if it was being added to a database i would be worried. but that is not the point of the excercise. is a guild officer really going to get you sent to guantanamo for being an activist?
i don't mind someone 'spying on me' if their 'spying' consists entirely of their watching out for incitement to or engagement in racism, violence or anything else that is 1) legally dubious or prohibited, 2) so abhorrent that for it to be associated with an academic institution would be ridiculous, and reporting their discoveries to the guild council. The council cannot get away with discriminatory behaviour, so even if you belong to a political group of the most extreme kind, unless you are advocating murder on racial or religious grounds you should be, and are legally safe.
finally, i'm sure the author of the article knows his stuff, but i have to say that the article was terrible. my favourite bits were:
"This is another example of the media trying to demonize the Muslim community through making educational institutions fear the presence of Muslims on their campuses."
hmmmmm. because the media thinks and acts as one. i was once mugged by the media. he took my wallet because that's the sort of person he is.
" One of the events organizers is distinctly Muslim and supports a beard on his face, "
brilliant.
on his actual face?
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I have realised two things. 1) The world is full of idiots, and 2) I'm an idiot |
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| the guerilla
Street Demonstrator
| | Joined: 27 Feb 2006 | | Posts: 69 | | : | | Location: the dark sides |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
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| Again how are we defining extremism? It seems to be anyone that looks like a Muslim is immediatly a suspect. How many terror plots were planned by students on a universirty campus. Come on! will people stop being idiots. The job of the union is to defend the students, if the police want to spy on students they should do it themselves. Warwick University Students Union was approached by special branch and asked to give the names of students in the ISOC, the union refused. Currently the spotlight is on the Muslim community, previously it was th Irish. No universities have been blown up, no plots have been drawn up at universities. Universities are a place for freedom of spreech and expression, it seem s to be that decenting opinions along with criticism of foreign policy seem to be considered as extremism. |
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| naivehottie
Black Bloc
| | Joined: 01 Apr 2006 | | Posts: 385 | | : | |
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| the guerilla wrote: | | The job of the union is to defend the students |
Surely preventing them being blown up is defending them? While it's unlikely that anything will be planned at one particular campus a university is a prime target for extremists recruiting. The people that carried out the bombings on July the 7th were seemingly normal people not obvious terrorists, so to say students wouldn't is an overassumption. As long as the rights of innocent people aren't severely reduced (and people checking they're not terrorists and no more is not remotely a severe reduction in rights) then I'd far rather not have the risk of more bombings. |
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