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Sazzle · Black Bloc

Sorry that post above was me!!!!

ZiggyMarley · Black Bloc

Teapotboy · Black Bloc

Silvia · Black Bloc

Rosie H · Indymedia Hound

Wow Silvia - I'm a complete atheist, but I have the utmost respect for you having just read that. I believe that everyone deserves respect for whatever religious stance they take as long as they have clearly weighed up the evidence/thought long and hard about it all, which you clearly have. Your interpretation is very refreshing and I think many Christians could learn a lot. It makes a lot of sense and what you said about the contextual considerations, e.g. author/historical, is very important.
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ZiggyMarley · Black Bloc

It seems Silvia that you are an unsure Catholic. I really would love to reply to your posts but its a bit late and im tired and I dont like to get into serious debates on here anymore. But it was a good post.

Sazzle · Black Bloc

Why bother posting a reply if u could do a better one in the morning and ur not gettin into serious discussions....

I think that the post that Silvia just made was absolutely fab. It describes a lot of the things that I feel and conveys a lot of the problems that religion brings to such issues as sex, relationships etc...

How is ur right to question how sure someone is about their religion? or even state it...... everyone has their subjective interpretation of the Bible and other religious texts please don't take away from what their interpretation is jsut because you think something different. I understand that the Bible is written by people just like me and you and therefore that is fallible, i know that it is God's word but this is to some extent, after all how on earth do you justify believing the Bible where it contradicts itself. What way to you go on such issues.... things are not just black and white and its not fair to think that just because you think those things everyone elses opinions are wrong .

Guest · Posted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:55 am Post subject:

Sazzle · Black Bloc

I feel its wrong to question someones beliefs and attitudes

Yes i have personal grievances with you its getting annoying but I am passionate about what I feel and you struck a nerve with religion. Everyones' subjective view on the Bible should be appreciated since much of religion is interpretative in itself...just seems that things clearly aren't black and white.

ZiggyMarley · Black Bloc

wadsey · Indymedia Hound

I feel that there is big difference in homosexuality today then there was in biblical times. The Bible talks about homosexual acts like a violation to love and nature…yet the loving, caring, faithful homosexual relationships that I see in the world around me are not that. The bible describes scenes where multi orgies take place, where humans have sex with animals etc. This, I can understand may not be promoting the laws of nature and love, but result more likely to the damaging of a person’s self. The practices that are discribed in the bible appear to happen for the want of sexual interaction…no necessarily for the love of the person that it occurs with (I may b very inaccurate here).I think God warns us from those things that will harm us, so not to abuse our bodies in this sexual way.

The perspective I see as a christian is this: People are gay, God makes people gay, attracted to men and women alike…This is not a Sin in God’s eye, being gay is not a sin, being attracted to people of the same sex isn’t a sin. No temptation is a sin, there is nothing to say that Jesus himself was not attracted to other men sexually (but not acting on that temptation). A gay person is not a Sinner, and most definitely not any less loved by the Creator. That is Biblical! God made humans to love, because there is an amazing love that is received when a creature returns that love – jus as a small child can bring tears of joy to their parent with a simple loving smile.

For me I find it hard when in the bible it specifically says acting on homosexual desires is wrong. Having thought about this a lot I do hope that cultural differences come into play. I see no ‘wrong’ in one person loving another, devoting to another, and glorifying God in their love for each other, straight or gay. If I were gay then I would like to think that I would follow the guidelines the bible lays out for relationships. That sex is an expression of love, that relationships are a safe, protected partnership, that a marriage is a life long commitment, that Sex is best within marriage. ... (This to me highlights how many ‘loud mouthed’ straight christians don’t live by this standard themselves – [sadly I don’t either-thus im a sinner])

So I gues I feel that mayb the Gay scenes around don’t mayb promote the most Godly behaviour, but by no means to the straight scenes either. Many people, gay and straight, are searching so hard for love and the right partner that along the way they lose self-respect, compromising their boundaries, beliefs and ideals. This, I believe, isn’t what God wanted for us, but that we get proper fulfilment out of life’s relationships, not heartache but peace, not complacency but contentment, not rejection but acceptance.

Concerning the bible. Yes this may seem like jus another interpretation, and that I gues that is wat it is, but please as u read the bible be mindful of the commonsense u have been given, use critical skills to question things, and search for answers by asking people and God and researching. I believe the Bible is a God inspired text, the people who wrote it actually met one of the most remarkable humans ever to live (Jesus), I trust that God helped the bible be written and I trust God (the holy spirit) to help me as I read and understand it. By questioning we are not any weaker in faith…for a lot of Jesus’ time on earth he was questioning the numerous religious teachings and cultural beliefs….are we not to follow his lead with the wisdom God gives us??

ZiggyMarley · Black Bloc

Nice post Ruth! If indeed I am allowed to say such things, lol. It seems from this discussion that many people on this forum see the 'no homosexuality' bit of the bible to be dated. Which indeed is an opinion! I do however think that a few people may have no posted as they do not wish to offend people and get the slating I did from certain quarters. Which again is fair enough, not everyone likes to raise controversial points, lol.

Dear Prudence · Black Bloc

Hmm I don't wanna make this into a massive post cos they're hard to read but it may be unavoidable.

First of all, I believe that we do indeed have the right to question someone's beliefs and opinions. What is the purpose of this forum or of any discussion? Yes we should have respect for people, but I see no reason why we should not question their beliefs or attitudes - are you saying we shouldn't question someone who says all Jews should be killed, for example? Many of our degrees are entirely based on questioning such things. When this dies society dies, in my opinion.

There are many points to make about Silvia's post re: the bible.

1) The people who wrote and translated the Gospels/New Testament did not have any power. Think about it: they were mainly Jews in a hostile Roman Empire, writing about a guy that the authorities (and many of the population) hated and had just killed. What they were saying was revolutionary, offensive, highly illegal stuff. They had no reason to lie about it in order to win kudos or a career jump.

2) The work that has been done to ascertain the authenticity of the Gospels as historical sources is extensive, and I think you will find, on closer scrutiny, that it can be trusted. Now, I am not saying anything about whether you should believe them based on this, I am just pointing out that there is far more evidence for the truth of the Gospels than there is for the records of what Julius Caesar did.

3) Silvia, you point out the crimes of the church over the centuries. This is certainly true, and I often cringe at how the church has behaved. But what I do believe is that this is nothing to do with the Bible, but with human sinful nature. I believe the Bible is the word of God and as such if the church followed every word it said it would not have committed such atrocities. The problem is with man, not with the Bible.

4) In the passage re: forgiveness, that's kind of a figurative speech device for saying 'forgive infinitely'. And I'm not sure what you mean about the church not forgiving Judas - I've never come across that, maybe it's more of a Catholic thing?

5) In terms of interpretation - my dad works in Brasil training pastors how to interpret the Bible. One thing that has astounded me in all my years of being a Christian is that people half way across the globe who have never met can interpret passages in exactly the same way just by listening to what the Bible says and not twisting it. Obviously there are discrepancies over minor issues, but the main points stay the same. It's amazing.

6) I agree that what the Catholic church has to offer is not enough. Doing things is not enough. That is why the Bible tells us that Jesus has done it all for us. There is nothing to do to win our salvation because we are fallen human beings, yet God in his mercy, love and grace sent his son to die so that we can have a relationship with him eternally. And there is nothing we can do to gain that, it comes for free. The Bible consistently speaks against 'prejudice, envy, desire of revenge'. Just read Paul's letters! What you are saying is quite right in that respect.

Sazzle - you describe yourself as a Christian... just out of interest, what do you mean by that? If you see yourself as a Christian because you follow some parts of the Bible, could you explain why you choose to believe those parts and not the others? And how you've taken the decision that we as human beings can decide this?

Thanks for your tiiiiime
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Sazzle · Black Bloc

Hmmmmmm.... I don't choose to follow some bits and not the others I choose to question bits that I wholeheartedly just can't agree with or have trouble learning from. Trying to learn from what others say and develop from there. It seems that there are a lot of different views apart from my own but I don't just want a subjective view of what the Bible is and interpret it so I develop more in my own life.

I throw my hands up and say that as a student I find a few bits a lot more difficult than others and have an extensively testing year.... but religion is about self discovery, belief, growth and I feel that from becoming a christian last year (a very short space of time I admit) that things are not just black and white, there is much conflict, contradiction and confusion which I want to learn from. Being a christian for me is about having faith in God and Jesus, and knowing that I am saved because Jesus came to save us from our sins.

Teapotboy · Black Bloc

Being a Christian for me is about knowing that God knows more than I do and if he doesn't want me to do something I am in no place to question it. Having faith in God also means having faith that he knows what is right for me.